tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post7112947867568197078..comments2024-01-17T13:16:10.378-08:00Comments on Joseph4GI: The "Mommy Page" WarsJosephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14190648498809795551noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-87280293215913168712013-03-07T19:33:51.168-08:002013-03-07T19:33:51.168-08:00Help make them see that the fourteenth amendment s...Help make them see that the fourteenth amendment should apply to everyone!! Equal protection under our laws!! Women have the right to remain intact! Let's extend that right to males as well!!<br />Please take the time to sign this petition and share with your friends!! Only 150 signatures are needed to make this publicly searchable on whitehouse.gov!! If we reach 100k signatures by April 5 the white house will have to address this issue!! Thank You<br /><br />https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/actually-enforce-fourteenth-amendment-equally-protect-males-circumcision-females-are-protected/1SS6RxWqAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07653805288616650952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-14540751502930766682013-02-27T16:00:08.757-08:002013-02-27T16:00:08.757-08:00Well stated.
I posted this on the thread where ...Well stated. <br /><br />I posted this on the thread where I found your blog link, Joseph (and I wonder how much traffic YOU will get based on posting it on one of these 'mommy pages' - although this one deleted NO comments - and sure enough there was a lot of terrible language on both sides that never got deleted here: https://www.facebook.com/TwoDegreesOfSUBURBIA?ref=ts&fref=ts) -- <br /><br />I think much of the problem here, with this topic, with this discussion, is that the choice for many parents - is to listen to this group above ^ or to listen to doctors. Outside the AP or Intactivist community (at least where I live) these arguments, facts, articles, are not widely circulated. In many cases, for many things, parents (with their child's best interest at heart) listen to pediatricians for everything. Culturally we believe, trust, value doctors. It is hard to understand (again outside the AP/Intactivist community) why we might trust for some things and not others. When the AAP says we should breastfeed exclusively for 6 months and for at least a year, we value that opinion. When they say circumcision is ok, we don't. This is hard to understand. If you go looking for information, to understand more about it, and you are first met with language such as this, insults, accusations of abuse and human rights violations... how likely are you to trust those giving the information? More or less likely than you are to trust the doctors?<br /><br />I just think that MORE people would be open to learning more (and overturning what a doctor has told them to do) if they were spoken to kindly. If their views and concerns were accepted, their questions answered (not their answers questioned). I am not saying everyone will believe, have their minds changed, not follow what a doctor tells them to do, I am just saying people are more likely to be open to change if they are not being insulted throughout the process.KT @ OneOrganicMamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03616413892467975127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-15149595561654769852013-02-16T19:51:53.552-08:002013-02-16T19:51:53.552-08:00Can you prove that these tactics are not useful in...Can you prove that these tactics are not useful in the long-run? Vicious and sustained ridicule can be a powerful force for change; one must remember that there is a wider audience beyond the subject of such an attack.Tom Riddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12994425531096864789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-91385526063433483522013-02-16T14:06:41.744-08:002013-02-16T14:06:41.744-08:00All excellent points, dreamer.
I hope others will...All excellent points, dreamer.<br /><br />I hope others will see these comments.<br /><br />~JosephJosephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14190648498809795551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-37014199207777770212013-02-16T13:51:28.373-08:002013-02-16T13:51:28.373-08:00We've been accused of fear mongering. Have you...We've been accused of fear mongering. Have you seen an intactivist tell a mom: "I hope your son survives" or "your son may die"? I've seen it.<br /><br />We've been accused of guilt-tripping. Have you seen anyone say "your son will resent you" - I've seen it.<br /><br />We've been accused of using threatening language. Have you seen anyone say "how would you like to be strapped to a board and have your labia cut off"? - I've seen it.<br /><br />Are those things false? No. But is that the way to deliver our message? Or are we just becoming too loud, expecting immediate submission, and getting angered when we don't see that happening?<br /><br />Can't we just stop for a second and see what we look like for someone outside?<br /><br />One thing is for sure, we've lost people from our ranks because they don't want to be seen in that same light.<br /><br />Are we becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy of "bashing" and "harassment"? We need to look deep into ourselves and see if we can fine tune our message. And maybe save our anger for those who really deserve it, those who are promoting the benefit of routine unneeded surgery of non-consenting babies.<br /><br />*** Done ***dreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14708824168962037873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-48309897189828310932013-02-16T13:50:48.078-08:002013-02-16T13:50:48.078-08:00And suddently they find themselves stormed by this...And suddently they find themselves stormed by this strange gang of people trying to instill them fear and to submit them into surrender... see? Before they have the time to look at the first link that an intactivist posted, there are already 100+ messages of intactivists that won't stop at anything until these new parents have a sudden epiphany and announce loudly that they have changed their minds. But most of the times this doesn't happen.<br /><br />Denial is the first step. "If it was wrong why would doctors recommend it", nevermind that the AAP really doesn't recommend it, they seem like they do. "But it's done for hygiene because otherwise you have to pull it back all the time to wash it" that's what they hear all the time, EVEN from health professionals who unlike what one would expect, don't really know better. And of course they haven't seen anyone with a major complication (or they are not aware of it), so everything that we tell them seems to be just fear mongering.<br /><br />And then they become defensive. It just makes sense: the harder you are attacked, the harder you defend yourself, in every aspect of life, isn't it so?<br /><br />And of course there are many intactivists in this battle that have deep regret or who have been personally impacted by their own circumcisions and carry a lot of anger, and this becomes apparent after an exchange of words. And there's also the tagging of more intactivists to the battle, so you have 20 or more intactivists trying to convince one or two people with a non-stop repeating of messages.<br /><br />I really wonder if people would be more likely to listen if we just gave our message, respectfully, free of emotions, and left. If they asked questions, we would be there to answer them, but if they don't ask anything then we just give them the space to process, to research some more, to see the links that we offered.<br /><br />There was this recent case this last week of a mom about to circumcise her baby and stressed, almost crying about it. Most everybody was nice expressing their disagreement, with the possible exception of that one person who said that her son would resent being mutilated like he resented being mutilated by his parents.<br /><br />Yes, that may well be the case. But is that the way to address a person who you don't know, a person who is trying to do the best they can, and a person who is going to come back home, to deal with what they have done with their lives, and find that this action that they were nervous about has elicited such negative message? Is it any wonder that the next status that we see from this person said that if "anyone thought that circumcising her baby made her a bad mom they could kiss her ass".<br /><br />Did we achieve anything other than looking bad?<br /><br />*** continues ***dreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14708824168962037873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-67426759397465618452013-02-16T13:49:56.901-08:002013-02-16T13:49:56.901-08:00I agree that these mommy wars have a strong compon...I agree that these mommy wars have a strong component of control, power and personal validation. But I also thing that this phenomenon occurs on both sides, as these virtual battles seem to degenerate sometimes into name calling and an unfortunate attempt to submit the other to surrender.<br /><br />While I have seen the intactivist message start kindly most of the times, this kindness ends up yielding to personal attacks, attempts at guilt tripping and other techniques that make us look bad. Thus, what we call "pro-cutting" mommies expect to find bullying, fear-mongering, hysteric intactivists. Can we look at the mirror and recognize that in ourselves?<br /><br />Before I ruffle more feathers, let me explain this: we know that infant circumcision is painful, risky, potentially dangerous, we know that it can have complications, that it can cause death, we know that it has an effect on sexuality even if American doctors refuse to see it, we know that it is ethically and morally wrong and a violation of human rights.<br /><br />Those on the other side, they don't know it. And some times they have a vested interest in not knowing.<br /><br />For one, there are many circumcised men who are not aware of any negative effect. Of course, in lack of a major complication, the only way to understand the effects would be by a thorough comparison of their sexual experience with an uncircumcised male, at a level that we normally don't share with others. So of course these males are "circumcised and fine", and they are likely to not want to know the difference. Who would want to know the difference when there's almost nothing that they can do about it? When it means receiving a major blow to their confidence?<br /><br />There are many parents who had their sons circumcised and didn't have to deal with major complications. Sure, they had to deal with a fuzzy baby afterwards and with the aftercare, but they don't realize that said aftercare and fuzziness is more complicated that what they believe to be a nightmare: caring for an intact penis, washing underneath that "bacteria trap", having to keep it "superclean" and to verify that their growing children continue to do so. It's a wonder that our manufacturers have not invented some rotary wire brush to polish the inside of intact foreskins given what a nightmare everyone seems to think this is.<br /><br />And everyone knows "that guy" who didn't have it done and had to do it later due to the recurrent infections, and everyone has heard those old wives tales, the same tales that the AAP keeps perpetuating through their horribly written and researched Policy Statement, which is the first thing that most people find when they do their research by typing "benefits of circumcision" on a search engine, just to find that "the benefits outweigh the risk", the same article parroted in all mainstream media on August 27th of last year.<br /><br />Add the social and family pressure, "you gotta do it", the health professionals pressure (especially nurses from what I hear), the weight of a "tradition" and you have the landscape that first time naive and nervous parents have to face when they face this "decision".<br /><br />*** continues ***dreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14708824168962037873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-6469818484574921302013-02-16T06:45:17.632-08:002013-02-16T06:45:17.632-08:00It makes me sad, angry, and terrified that the wom...It makes me sad, angry, and terrified that the women who run these pages share my title: mother. Thank you for reminding me that the issue is being talked about at least.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-65922702537295930932013-02-15T21:31:53.912-08:002013-02-15T21:31:53.912-08:00So true. Brava to the mommas out there fighting th...So true. Brava to the mommas out there fighting the good fight. Sometimes it seems that the pro-cutting masses use these controversies to gain exposure for themselves. Post one thing that will rile up the troops and all of a sudden you have THOUSANDS over at your page/blog... One particular single dad laughing has done it a few times... and guess what, it works! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-23319341165717654532013-02-15T18:39:40.587-08:002013-02-15T18:39:40.587-08:00An up-to-date analysis of what's happening on ...An up-to-date analysis of what's happening on Facebook... intactivist Moms mainly are doing the heavy lifting and deserve the credit for finding the discussions and going nose-to-nose with the bullies who run the mommy pages.Brother Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552937328304531334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-548248685729133691.post-59340046954465842782013-02-15T18:22:11.780-08:002013-02-15T18:22:11.780-08:00Excellent column Joseph. You've accurately des...Excellent column Joseph. You've accurately described this phenomenon of how the circumcision "mommy page" wars are waged.<br /><br />Consider these young mothers, pressured into cutting their children by all the people around them, and the only defence they have for this is the pro-circumcision propaganda they accepted. <br /><br />The question will also be raised by many of their sons, who growing up with access to factual information about this issue will no doubt have their own feelings about what was done to their bodies, without consent. <br /><br />This movement for human rights to genital autonomy must certainly acknowledge your very significant contributions, your unrelenting look at this from many angles. Thank you!<br /><br />Bonobo3Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05937870574691578171noreply@blogger.com